[Spoilers] A Dance With Dragons [Spoilers]

Whew! I just finished it.
Anyone else?

I did, I did... it was al I had expected, and more!

The Slynt scene roched my balls off, the description of the Greenseer was an eye-opener and the last wall-chapter... well, damn .

How did you enjoy the read Hodor?

So...as good time as any to start talking about events of the long awaited tome...please forgive for my incoherent ramblings...

Jon dead or alive?I am torn about the issue, on one hand he was positioned as one of main heroes and all that jazz, plus heavily implied AzorAhainess in Mel chapter, on the other it's been awhile and off him for good since main character really died ,so Martin could decide to shake things up and off him for good, well he would survive as Ghost , but won't be a PoV.One day it seems the former, the other, the latter.Whatever comes though I'm hoping for Dolorous Edd as Lord Commander.

Ramsay's letter.I'm pretty sure that it's not entirely true, but at the same time not entirely false if that makes sense.I figure that Stannis(false AA), Mance(his luck will run out) and Roose(to let the bastard loose) won't live to the end of the series, but I cannot guess who have perished at Winterfell.Or who won the battle for that matter.All the Northen plotline seem very complicated, Stannis, Roose, Rickon and Davos(btw always was intrigued about Skagos and liked Davos so cannot wait) and Manderly, Dagmer Cleftajaw, Howland reed and those who Robb sent with the letter, Littlefinger's plot and winter's coming on top of that, hard to say how it's gonna play out.

Loved Tycho Nestoris, Lord Manderly, Lady Dustin, Alys Karstark, Val, Edd Tollet.Missed the first Mance disguise totally, but noticed who Abel really was pretty fast .In retrospect Jon made a mistake by sending his friends away and not utilizing "the trappings of power" as Melisandre said.

Was I the only one that thought that the legend about Hardhome was strangely alike to Doom of Valyria?

Theon's chapters were really good, well written and interesting.I still don't like the guy though.I think Asha is pregnant with Qarl's child, she didn't get to the moontea she wanted, didn't she?It seems like she will use Theon to gain the Seastone Chair (with the story of whathisname Greyiron in the first Asha chapter), considering that it looks like Theon was gelded, he boy will be heir to Iron Islands, unless of course it's all misdirection.

For the first time in the series I really liked the Bran chapters.Not so sure that Coldhands=Benjen anymore, on the other hand I was fucking right that Bloodraven is 3EC.Looking forward for learning how he got there, did Maester Aemon know about all this?Weirwods and ravens seem like Bran's instruments now(well and Hodor), I wonder if he can hijack the messaging network between castles.I noticed that Mel an Bloodraven have opposing views about darkness and dreams, I guess fire too since it won't do any good to the trees.Still R'hllor doesn't look as outright evil.Well, the chant about one god, one king, one land does invoke nazi connotations, but...

Overall the northern part was best of the book...

Jaime chapter was kinda out of place, it was nice to have a look at Blackwoods and Brackens and shoutout to Dunk&Egg as well, but it really didn't advance the plot, and gave us another cliffhanger, and this book has no shortage of those.I preferred to be left with AFFC cliffhanger.

Cersei's walk of shame was awesome, her return to power though seems imminent with UnGregor and Kevan's death.

Doran Martell needs a masterclass from Wyman Manderly in vengeance.He sat years on his ass, planed to wed his daughter to a madman, did not room her for the rule, his brother and son bought a farm.Very poor scheme, he should just take Ellaria's advice and back off.It's good that he kept Dorne out of war though.

Don't care if Aegon is real or not.It's pretty clear he is not AA or PwwP, and politically it doesn't really matter if people believe him to be true and he has an army to support the claim.He looks like a nice lad, might even sit the throne for awhile, but goner nevertheless.Loved that he took Tyrion's advice and marched on Westeros instead of begging Dany for her hand.I wonder how he fits into Littlefinger's scheme if at all.Did not catch that Connington was gay.His greyscale, I don't understand why he wouldn't tell the Halfmaester and try to treat it, at the very least it seems contagious, he may infect his precious Aegon.The whole greyscale thing seem vaguely important, but for the life of me I can't figure how.Who is Lemore?It would be cheap if she turns out Ashara Dayne.

Tyrion, well he traveled a lot, if martin will release a cyvasse I'll buy it, I'm sucker for strategy board games.There were some hints that A+J=T.

Dany, her whole I'm a little girl blah blah spiel is tiresome.Daario thing is probably gonna bite her back.I think that Green Grace is The Harpy, she made a mistake by allowing the Meereenese nobility to stay intact, with money and power.Should've gone all 1917 on them.My fovorite part was talk with Xaro, he is smart and had couple of good points.Also one of the small number of eastern characters who are really fleshed out.Ghiscari really look like caricatures.I guess after Slaver's bay we're gonna see Dany take it to Volantis, maybe we'll see the demon road too as it was mentioned quite a bit, and only then to westeros.I personally wouldn't mind to see more of Free cities and more sellswords.Sellsword companies were easily one of my favorite parts of the books, remind me of Italian condottieri.

Arya might well end up on the side of evil in the end.Also I think we now know what jaquen is doing in the Citadel, we've seen that Faceless Men don't like dragons and Valyria, and Tyrion thought about book on death of dragons hidden in Citadel.i think we might see Faceless men attempt to off Dany's dragons, perhaps through Arya?

Probably missed something important....but here it is

i really liked it, i didn't like some people i heard go into how much was or was not resolved it was a great fun read

Woah Darkstar, that was a great post! I'll try to comment on some of what you said...

Well for one, I don't think Jon is dead. He's too important of a character, plus there is still the mystery of his birth to solve. If he's dead and only around as Ghost, then what would be the point of leaving his past such a big question? I definitely think he is Azor Ahai. GRRM probably did that in order for the Night's Watch to change since it seems like the Wildlings are going to be the new defenders of the wall. I was completely surprised by what happened to Jon though... even with all of Melisandre's warnings and the unrest of some of the brothers. Honestly it just made me sick. GRRM pulled a Julius Caesar on that one and I could have done without it.

Some other things that bothered me... WAY too many cliffhangers in this one! Dany's chapters bored me and basically showed her as a shit ruler, which worries me if she eventually goes to Westeros. Cersei's walking naked through the city wasn't satisfying to me. She was humiliated, but that wench needs to die. Also disappointed with the Frey's still not paying for the Red Wedding. I never thought I'd say this, but there wasn't enough long awaited deaths LOL. Only Janos Slynt (which was badass by the way, Jon was awesome!)

My favorite chapter POVs were Bran, Arya, Jon, and Asha. Theon's were well done, but just very creepy. Ramsay is disgusting and I can't wait until he dies. I liked Gryff's since it introduced "Aegon." Don't know if he's really Rhaegar's son, but it makes things interesting! And because of Quentyn's death, I'm pretty sure Dorne will support Aegon.

As to theories, I also picked up on Aerys being Tyrion's real father. That would certainly explain Tywin's hate for the Targs. I just don't think it was only about Cersei being turned down as Rhaegar's bride. And speaking of Tyrion, I didn't like his chapters except when he was with Gryff and Aegon. Did anyone else notice all the times that GRRM wrote Tyrion as pissing off the boat? What the hell was that about

I don't think Arya is evil (or going to be). She's basically being trained as an assasin, but there has been a huge change with her. Before she used to kill for revenge or to survive, but now she is learning discipline. And the last person she killed she didn't even do herself. Efficient killing without getting her hands "dirty". She's going to be like Jaquen. And I definitely think she is going to be given a high profile person to kill in the future.

Also we've got to talk about Victarion... so with that horn, is he actually going to be able to control dragons? Now that Dany has been missing and meeting back up with the Dothraki's, I don't know where that leaves Vic. I am assuming they will meet at some point, but I highly doubt that Dany will like him.

Religion was definitely a big focus of this one... we find out who the old gods actually are. Then lots of blood sacrifice by the followers of the drowned god and the god of light. The sparrows are extremists too. GRRM is definitely saying that people can do bad things in the name of religion. The old gods and the seven seem the most harmless though.

I'm sure I will think of more to talk about later! haha

I don't think Jon is a goner either. At first I thought so because, well it is Martin, but after re-reading Melisandre's prophecies again its pretty clear that he's AA reborn. I was still a great thrill to read and got a hell of a rise out of me, the first like it since I read book 3.

Dany's chapters were a bit of a let down by the end for me too Winty. She did 2 things the entire book: rule poorly and moon over Dario. Looking back at Meereen I see why this was Martin's 'Kong' and had such a hard time over it. Between her, the politics of that region, and the 4 or 5 different parties trying to get to her, the whole thing seemed like a huge clusterfuck that was just too big to wrap up. Really its the only thing in the series that I think shows he didn't quite know where it was going.

I loved the fact that we got some of Arya, she might be my favorite of all. I don't think she's evil per se, but I noticed that despite part of her training requiring her to forget all that she was, she still remembers the names in her prayers all this time later. She will kill those who are still alive when she's done training I think. Also, I remember someone remarking in the book about how bad it is to default on your debts to Bravos, and that rulers tend to die when that happens. So perhaps Arya will be the one to off little King Tommen in the next book.

With Ramsay's letter, I don't know how much of it is a lie. The Boltons aren't ones to leave their enemies alive, so I don't doubt that Stannis is dead. I think since Theon and Jeyne got to Asha first, and the three of them made their escape knowing that the Boltons were on their way to kill the lot of them. He held Mance as a bargaining chip for some reason, but why would he ask for Reek back if he wasn't to be found with Stannis' host?

Overall I liked the book a lot. Martin is always awesome and this is the best series ever, but I did feel like a little something was missing the same way book 4 was. Still, it was well worth the wait, thumbs way up

P.S. - Quentyn Martell has to get the award for biggest f'n idiot in the whole series.

Ok, I absolutely loved the book.

So, where to start... I guess I'll address the points you made first.

I really hope Jon is not dead. That would suck so much. Like I hated when Ned died, but realisticly, the rest of the story worked great without him. Jon on the other hand has so much more to give. I was reading that chapter on my morning train to work and it ruined my whole day. I don't necessarily think that he is Azor Ahai reborn - more evidence is pointing at Dany, but there's still so much to him, including the mistery of his birth. I want to belive that he is alive - we didn't see him actually die although he did get some nasty stabs. At the same time, I hope he doesn't come back as Ghost or some kind of undead - that would suck badly. Better have him dead in that case. Maybe Melisandre can give him a kiss of life like Thoros did with Lord Beric?

I share your opinion that Dany's chapters were once again the weakest part of the book. GRRM made her look really hopeless. Almost reminds me of Catlyn in the first few books - every decision she makes brings on disaster and costs someone life. Since Khal Drogo's death (or not long before), she was a very strong character, but in this book she turned meek and over what - a bag of burned child bones? I'm not trying to be heartless, but she didn't even question it and investigate properly. Then the first half of her chapters about whether or not she should have sex with Daario - I was thinking just do it and get over with it.

I'm not sure who could be the Harpy, but if it's not Hizdahr himself, I'm sure he knows who it is. Green Grace is a good choice. Btw, had a lot of trouble getting all those Gishcari names, so if I spell one wrongly, don't hold it against me.

Tyrion's chapter's proved the best for me, for many reasons. First reason is his sense of humour and witty remarks which I always admired. I laughed so many times out loud while reading his chapters. The other reasons are that so many things happened in his chapters - Aegon showing alive (and to think I had so many theories who of existing characters could be Aegon and there he appears from nowhere), then a twist with Jorrah capturing him, then enslavement, basicly every chapter brought something new. I also didn't miss the hint that Aerys might've been his father, but even if it was the case, I don't think Tywin would've know about it. Although this should give him some chance with the dragons, it didn't really help Quentyn.

Speaking of Aegon, I don't doubt him being the genuine Aegon. He has a clear Targaryen look to him and is very stubborn and easy to anger. Another thing, for some reason Varys is very loyal to Targaryens and I don't think he would want to bring a fake one to rule Seven Kingdoms. I totally missed that Jon Connington was a gay and even now I'm missing it. How did you guys figure that one out?

Oh, and I also missed that Rattleshirt died in Mance's stead, although I should've guessed. When I was reading how undignified the death was I thought that it was way out of Mance's character and wondered why GRRM did that to Mance.

I was glad for Arya's chapters. She, Jon and Tyrion are my favorite POV characters, and she might be the very favorite one. Her future path I can't even begin to figure out. She's on the road to become a faceless woman, but to what end? Btw, the fact that they somehow use dead people faces to change theirs was a bit of a letdown. I was hoping for some magic, or even potions. Although I guess the fact that the dead boy from AFfC prologue showed at the end was a hint.

Poor Quentyn. I was wondering the whole book what his role was going to be, since I never thought he would actually marry Dany - that would've been too simple. It turned out his role was to die. If dragons are drawn to Targaryan blood, does it suggest that Quentyn wasn't Doran's son? His parents do spend a lot of time appart, after all. Although, maybe Vyserion would've accepted him if Rhaegal didn't intervene.

Victarion chapters were the most boring ones. It was like reading a ship log. I wonder if this was GRRM's intention, showing us Victarion's character as unimaginative and straight to the point. Can't remember what his chapters were like in the previous book. All in all, if those chapters were left for the next book, no one would've complained (though probably trying to remember who Moroquo was when reading the next book).

I was disappointed that we didn't see more Bran's chapters, to see him have more taste of his new powers and find out who Coldhands is. I totally missed that the green seer was Bryden Rivers aka Bloodraven. I wonder how he ended up there. If I remember correctly, he came to the Wall with maester Aemon and became a Lord Commander, but what happened after. I wonder whether it is significant that he has Targaryen blood.

I liked Davos's chapters, but again wished for more. He could've at least found Rickon, if not brought him back yet. It was good to see Manderley's bravery.

Theon's chapters were indeed creepy, but it was nice to watch his transformation from Reek back to Theon. Asha's chapters were ok, but obviously more there to show us what was happening with Stannis's host than with Asha herself. But I like her, so I liked the chapters as well.

Jaime and Cersei, well, I like Jaime and his sense of humour sometimes matches Tyrions, but the fact that he appeared only to leave us with a cliffhanger didn't please me. As for Cersei, I wonder how long her humility would last.

And Varys with a crossbow - what a cultural shock I was always imagining him with daggers and poison. But finally confirmation who the little birds were (although funny enough in the AGoT series, it was confirmed staight away).

Like I said, a great book. Five dead Frey's and counting, plus Janos Slynt for a good measure. Btw, do you recon some Frey's ended up in the wedding pie? Manderley was asking for the Rat Cook song.

So, that brings us to cliffhangers:

Jon Like I said, hope his not dead, but I would rather see him dead than as Ghost or undead.

Ramsey's letter I don't think it's 100% genuine. He definitely has Mance, otherwise he wouldn't know his identity, but his defeat of Stannis seems exaggerated. Mance could've told him about the sword. Also, if he obviously lost Theon and Jayne and I don't think he captured Asha, since he would've bragged about it. It's not like Stannis to send them away for their protection - he dragged Asha with him in the first place. Also, could Roose be dead, considering that Ramsey wrote the letter, not Roose?

Dany I have this wild theory that Khal Jhaqo is bringing his khalassar to join her, hearing about her power and dragons. I know he's supposed to be her enemy, but maybe we were being made to belive that on purpose. With them she can break the siege and then start going back to Westerous.

Davos I hope he finds Rickon, but what then? It all depends on whether or not Stannis is really dead. Or Jon for that matter.

Jamie Well, Brianna is definitely lying. Neither Arya nor Sansa are with the rebels and neither is the Hound. Why is she lying? The cliffhanger from AFfC of what happened to her remained for the next book. Although, maybe the Hound came to save her and that was what she screamed. Or maybe she died and got a kiss of life and became unCat's creature. In any case, what would happen to Jamie depends on what happen to Brianna.

CerseiNow that Kevan is dead, I wonder how long she will remain pious. I don't think she'll die soon. After all, Varys wants her alive for her incompetence. And there's Ser Robert the Strong aka Gregor the Undead.

Aegon The biggest question is whether the Dorne will rise for him. He didn't land in Dorne and prince Doran is so bloody cautious to take someone's word for it.

VictarionOk, man with the horn, how are you planning to use it? And to what purpose? Probably the part I'm the least eager to find about.

Did I miss someone or something? Probably, but I'm getting tired of typing.

I hope we don't have to wait too long for the next book.

Hahaha Darkstar and Pex wrote more than GRRM did! Fair dues though, lots of excellent points.

I was so upset reading Jon's last chapter last night. He was about to break his vows though, whatever way he framed it. Knife behind the shoulder blades is bad, but a stomach wound? Poor Jon. I don't think he'll die (despite all the allusions to skinchangers staying in their animals after death) but he'll be out of action for a bit at least and who knows what's going to go down on the wall while he's out.

Im glad Im not the only one who outed Jon Cottington, he loved Rhaegar like a prince (the prince of his pants)

Did anyone else think Manderly may have fed the Winterfell wedding Frey pie? The Freys that went missing disappeared without a trace, Manderly seemed over-fond of his pies and he got drunk and asked them to play the rat king?

I think Ramsay is holed up in Winterfell being ruined somehow. Why else would he want Stannis's family? (don't get me wrong, he's not above a bit of child flaying, but still.. he wants hostages) He obviously has Mance but other than that I doubt he's won at all. Good point about Ramsay writing the letter as well, not Roose. I hadn't clocked that one. Quote of the book "Quiet, or you'll make me rue the day I raped your mother"

RIP Quentyn Martell. Sillious Soddus x

[quote=The King Of New York;10630]I don't think Jon is a goner either. At first I thought so because, well it is Martin, but after re-reading Melisandre's prophecies again its pretty clear that he's AA reborn.

Really? I thought it was Danerys! Did i miss something? She was the one born in salt and storms or whatever it was and she brought out her weapon from the death of her loved one by hatching the dragons on drogos funeral pyre.

Ooooh hang on, I've read some stuff on Rans board that sounds very Jon = Azor Azhi..

*definate potential spoilers (if that's not an oxymoron) ahead*

A freerider wrote:
"Jon might be AA or might be AA NOW. Let's break down the prophesy:
When the red star bleeds: the idiot knight who took on Wun Wun has [several] star as a sigil and there's something red about him (Patrick) and he's bleeding [he mentions bright red blood].
and the darkness gathers: the watch's oath and it's evening.
Azor Ahai shall be born again: getting stabbed to death is a good way to set up being born again.
amidst smoke: Jon notices that his wounds look like they're smoking.
and salt: Bowen Marsh's tears"

I thought that was quite a cool theory. Someone mentioned Jons dream as well? Where he had a flaming hand or something? Can't seem to find the page.